Openwall GNU/*/Linux - a small security-enhanced Linux distro for servers
[<prev] [next>] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 21:21:48 -0500 (EST)
From: idunham@...abit.com
To: musl@...ts.openwall.com
Subject: Re: Summary of 1.0 marketing plan/scheme/nefarious plot 
     from IRC.

> Notes from the discussion we had on IRC, plus some further random
> thoughts on telling the world about musl:
>
> - wait until 1.0 so it's most likely to works for them.
>    - People who take a look and wander off again are less likely to
> take another look,
>      so try to make a spash when you're _ready_, not before.
>    - counter this with "rule of 7", people filter out noise and won't
> remember they've
>      even heard of you until they've seen it in ~7 different places. So
> once you _ARE_
>      ready, get the word out everywhere. (Politely.)
>
> - prepare the website to covert casual browsers into long-term users.
>    - press release extoling virtues
>      - simple
>        - realtime: less code is more deterministic
>        - security: less code is easier to audit
>        - students/teachers: learn how a posix system works
>      - link to the online git browser for the "show me the code" guys.
>      - already tested against 8 gazillion packages
>      - standards compliant
>      - BSD license: static linking ok, android deployment ok
Little quibble: MIT + some BSD and some PD code.
>      - works side by side with existing libraries, or static linked
>        - easy deployment on android without bionic limitations
>      - technical advantages
>        - support static and dynamic linking and do _both_ well
>        - thread implementation is _not_crazy_, and no legacy baggage.
>
>    - obvious "start here" from main page.
>      - Why it's cool (collate)
>      - how to use it (collate)
>        - HOWTO walkthrough
>
>    - binaries they can try.
>      - cross compiler, build hello world
>      - livecd of full-ish x86 distro.
>        - with working x11 and simple gui (xfce? fvwm?)
>      - chroot for each target with native development tools
>        - system images for qemu maybe?
>        - launch x11 vnc server and display in tightvnc window?
>      - jslinux live image on website
>
> - distro conversions
>    - leverage existing repositories, don't fall into the buildroot trap
>    - approach gentoo guys about a musl build
>      - #gentoo-embedded on freenode
>      - maybe funtoo would be easier (Daniel Robbins' new project,
> #funtoo on freenode)
Luca Barbado covered this one ;)
>    - approach debian guys about musl debootstrap
>    - arch linux, slackware, puppy, crunchbang, tinycore...
Puppy: Already some awareness. Fatdog64 allegedly includes a musl
toolchain.  At least two of the developers involved in pupngo (an
experimental "puppy project" that produces a _very_ small & minimal
~Puppy-style distro/project) have been working on musl toolchains, and one
of them is involved in a large number of the puppy projects/puplets.
TinyCore: Already some awareness: someone emailed pcc-list about enabling
linux-arm, with the intended usecase being microcore/some variant of "Army
Core" on A10 devices.
(pcc apparently supports ARM but only on some BSD flavor)


> - push "musl support" patches to other projects upstream all at once
>    - sabotage collected a bunch?
And a number in musl-pkgsrc-patches (though I'm dubious about some of them)
>    - people who develop on 3 other project seeing musl on all 3 lists
>      makes dev community look big and active.
>
> - Write linux from scratch "musl hint", contribute it to LFS, then link
>    to it on LFS website from musl website.
>
> - is userbase of glibc, uClibc, klibc, or dietlibc better served by
> musl?
The dietlibc & uclibc section is where the puppy developers are starting
to try musl.
FWIW, I got their attention by mentioning the size of a full-static binary
for tinymp3, a little ffmpeg-based MP3 player; the license change got some
interest too.

>    - contribute musl option to buildroot?
>    - contribute musl option to crosstool-ng?
May be sensible.
Embtoolkit is advertising that musl support is on its way.
>    - Ask mentor graphics (formly code sourcery) to do a musl toolchain?
>      - LOTS of proprietary embedded devs use this one, it's
> "professional".
>      - windriver.com is now a wholly owned subsidiary of intel
>    - klibc guys are initramfs@...r or embedded@...r (see lists)
>      - ask clibc author Peter Anvin if musl serves his needs?
>
> - mailing lists you can post a "here's how musl can help _you_" on:
>    It's not spam if you tailor a post to each list, especially if
> there's patches
>    attached in the case of dash or util-linux...
>    - each architecture list for arches you support (linux-arm,
> linux-ppc, etc).
>      "musl is pleased to announce support for the $BLAH architecture,
> here are
>       a cross compiler, chroot with native compiler, and a system image
> to play with."
I'm assuming this would mean some of your work and some of Gregor's?

>      - http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/mailinglists/lists.php
>      - http://www.linux-mips.org/wiki/Net_Resources#Mailing_lists
>      - https://lists.ozlabs.org/listinfo/linuxppc-dev
>      - http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#linux-x86_64
>    - http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#dash
>    - http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#initramfs
>    - http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#linux-embedded
>    - http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#util-linux
>    - and maybe one "OS support" message to linux-kernel.
>
> - websites that might review musl if we ask nicely:
>    - linux
>      - lwn.net (submit via lwn@....net)
>      - h-online (ping @codepope on twitter)
>      - Linux Journal
>      - Linux Today (they'll just link elsewhere)

I'd add Phoronix.  I'd suggest inquiring about a "guest article" (make
sure to mention that it builds with clang as well as GCC, since Micheal
seems to to love anything related to LLVM)
Also getting musl support upstream into apache would help, since one of
the simplest benchmarks PTS does involves building apache from _unpatched_
 source, then testing its performance.
>    - android
>      - not personally familiar, google for "android news" finds several.
>      - works well with android kernel, installs side-by-side with
> bionic,
>        static links well, doesn't introduce any new licensing issues,
>        provides full posix environment, active and responsive dev
> community.




Powered by blists - more mailing lists

Your e-mail address:

Confused about mailing lists and their use? Read about mailing lists on Wikipedia and check out these guidelines on proper formatting of your messages.