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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 21:48:54 -0700
From: Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@...il.com>
To: Andy Lutomirski <luto@...capital.net>
Cc: Mickaël Salaün <mic@...ikod.net>,
"linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...nel.org>, Arnd Bergmann <arnd@...db.de>,
Casey Schaufler <casey@...aufler-ca.com>,
Daniel Borkmann <daniel@...earbox.net>,
Daniel Mack <daniel@...que.org>,
David Drysdale <drysdale@...gle.com>,
"David S . Miller" <davem@...emloft.net>,
Elena Reshetova <elena.reshetova@...el.com>,
"Eric W . Biederman" <ebiederm@...ssion.com>,
James Morris <james.l.morris@...cle.com>,
Kees Cook <keescook@...omium.org>, Paul Moore <pmoore@...hat.com>,
Sargun Dhillon <sargun@...gun.me>,
"Serge E . Hallyn" <serge@...lyn.com>, Tejun Heo <tj@...nel.org>,
Will Drewry <wad@...omium.org>,
"kernel-hardening@...ts.openwall.com" <kernel-hardening@...ts.openwall.com>,
Linux API <linux-api@...r.kernel.org>,
LSM List <linux-security-module@...r.kernel.org>,
Network Development <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
"open list:CONTROL GROUP (CGROUP)" <cgroups@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC v3 18/22] cgroup,landlock: Add CGRP_NO_NEW_PRIVS to handle
unprivileged hooks
On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 09:38:16PM -0700, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:31 PM, Alexei Starovoitov
> <alexei.starovoitov@...il.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 09:08:57PM -0700, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
> >> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:00 PM, Alexei Starovoitov
> >> <alexei.starovoitov@...il.com> wrote:
> >> > On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 07:27:08PM -0700, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > This RFC handle both cgroup and seccomp approaches in a similar way. I
> >> >> >> > don't see why building on top of cgroup v2 is a problem. Is there
> >> >> >> > security issues with delegation?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> What I mean is: cgroup v2 delegation has a functionality problem.
> >> >> >> Tejun says [1]:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> We haven't had to face this decision because cgroup has never properly
> >> >> >> supported delegating to applications and the in-use setups where this
> >> >> >> happens are custom configurations where there is no boundary between
> >> >> >> system and applications and adhoc trial-and-error is good enough a way
> >> >> >> to find a working solution. That wiggle room goes away once we
> >> >> >> officially open this up to individual applications.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Unless and until that changes, I think that landlock should stay away
> >> >> >> from cgroups. Others could reasonably disagree with me.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Ours and Sargun's use cases for cgroup+lsm+bpf is not for security
> >> >> > and not for sandboxing. So the above doesn't matter in such contexts.
> >> >> > lsm hooks + cgroups provide convenient scope and existing entry points.
> >> >> > Please see checmate examples how it's used.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> To be clear: I'm not arguing at all that there shouldn't be
> >> >> bpf+lsm+cgroup integration. I'm arguing that the unprivileged
> >> >> landlock interface shouldn't expose any cgroup integration, at least
> >> >> until the cgroup situation settles down a lot.
> >> >
> >> > ahh. yes. we're perfectly in agreement here.
> >> > I'm suggesting that the next RFC shouldn't include unpriv
> >> > and seccomp at all. Once bpf+lsm+cgroup is merged, we can
> >> > argue about unpriv with cgroups and even unpriv as a whole,
> >> > since it's not a given. Seccomp integration is also questionable.
> >> > I'd rather not have seccomp as a gate keeper for this lsm.
> >> > lsm and seccomp are orthogonal hook points. Syscalls and lsm hooks
> >> > don't have one to one relationship, so mixing them up is only
> >> > asking for trouble further down the road.
> >> > If we really need to carry some information from seccomp to lsm+bpf,
> >> > it's easier to add eBPF support to seccomp and let bpf side deal
> >> > with passing whatever information.
> >> >
> >>
> >> As an argument for keeping seccomp (or an extended seccomp) as the
> >> interface for an unprivileged bpf+lsm: seccomp already checks off most
> >> of the boxes for safely letting unprivileged programs sandbox
> >> themselves.
> >
> > you mean the attach part of seccomp syscall that deals with no_new_priv?
> > sure, that's reusable.
> >
> >> Furthermore, to the extent that there are use cases for
> >> unprivileged bpf+lsm that *aren't* expressible within the seccomp
> >> hierarchy, I suspect that syscall filters have exactly the same
> >> problem and that we should fix seccomp to cover it.
> >
> > not sure what you mean by 'seccomp hierarchy'. The normal process
> > hierarchy ?
>
> Kind of. I mean the filter layers that are inherited across fork(),
> the TSYNC mechanism, etc.
>
> > imo the main deficiency of secccomp is inability to look into arguments.
> > One can argue that it's a blessing, since composite args
> > are not yet copied into the kernel memory.
> > But in a lot of cases the seccomp arguments are FDs pointing
> > to kernel objects and if programs could examine those objects
> > the sandboxing scope would be more precise.
> > lsm+bpf solves that part and I'd still argue that it's
> > orthogonal to seccomp's pass/reject flow.
> > I mean if seccomp says 'ok' the syscall should continue executing
> > as normal and whatever LSM hooks were triggered by it may have
> > their own lsm+bpf verdicts.
>
> I agree with all of this...
>
> > Furthermore in the process hierarchy different children
> > should be able to set their own lsm+bpf filters that are not
> > related to parallel seccomp+bpf hierarchy of programs.
> > seccomp syscall can be an interface to attach programs
> > to lsm hooks, but nothing more than that.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean. I mean that, logically, I think we should
> be able to do:
>
> seccomp(attach a syscall filter);
> fork();
> child does seccomp(attach some lsm filters);
>
> I think that they *should* be related to the seccomp+bpf hierarchy of
> programs in that they are entries in the same logical list of filter
> layers installed. Some of those layers can be syscall filters and
> some of the layers can be lsm filters. If we subsequently add a way
> to attach a removable seccomp filter or a way to attach a seccomp
> filter that logs failures to some fd watched by an outside monitor, I
> think that should work for lsm, too, with more or less the same
> interface.
>
> If we need a way for a sandbox manager to opt different children into
> different subsets of fancy filters, then I think that syscall filters
> and lsm filters should use the same mechanism.
>
> I think we might be on the same page here and just saying it different ways.
Sounds like it :)
All of the above makes sense to me.
The 'orthogonal' part is that the user should be able to use
this seccomp-managed hierarchy without actually enabling
TIF_SECCOMP for the task and syscalls should still go through
fast path and all the way till lsm hooks as normal.
I don't want to pay _any_ performance penalty for this feature
for lsm hooks (and all syscalls) that don't have bpf programs attached.
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