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Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 21:35:50 +0200
From: Mickaël Salaün <mic@...ikod.net>
To: Andy Lutomirski <luto@...capital.net>
Cc: "linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...nel.org>, Arnd Bergmann <arnd@...db.de>,
Casey Schaufler <casey@...aufler-ca.com>,
Daniel Borkmann <daniel@...earbox.net>,
Daniel Mack <daniel@...que.org>, David Drysdale <drysdale@...gle.com>,
"David S . Miller"
<davem@...emloft.net>,
Elena Reshetova <elena.reshetova@...el.com>,
"Eric W . Biederman" <ebiederm@...ssion.com>,
James Morris <james.l.morris@...cle.com>,
Kees Cook <keescook@...omium.org>, Paul Moore <pmoore@...hat.com>,
Sargun Dhillon <sargun@...gun.me>,
"Serge E . Hallyn" <serge@...lyn.com>, Tejun Heo <tj@...nel.org>,
Will Drewry <wad@...omium.org>,
"kernel-hardening@...ts.openwall.com" <kernel-hardening@...ts.openwall.com>,
Linux API <linux-api@...r.kernel.org>,
LSM List <linux-security-module@...r.kernel.org>,
Network Development <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
"open list:CONTROL GROUP (CGROUP)" <cgroups@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC v3 18/22] cgroup,landlock: Add CGRP_NO_NEW_PRIVS to handle
unprivileged hooks
On 15/09/2016 03:25, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Mickaël Salaün <mic@...ikod.net> wrote:
>>
>> On 14/09/2016 20:27, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
>>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 12:24 AM, Mickaël Salaün <mic@...ikod.net> wrote:
>>>> Add a new flag CGRP_NO_NEW_PRIVS for each cgroup. This flag is initially
>>>> set for all cgroup except the root. The flag is clear when a new process
>>>> without the no_new_privs flags is attached to the cgroup.
>>>>
>>>> If a cgroup is landlocked, then any new attempt, from an unprivileged
>>>> process, to attach a process without no_new_privs to this cgroup will
>>>> be denied.
>>>
>>> Until and unless everyone can agree on a way to properly namespace,
>>> delegate, etc cgroups, I think that trying to add unprivileged
>>> semantics to cgroups is nuts. Given the big thread about cgroup v2,
>>> no-internal-tasks, etc, I just don't see how this approach can be
>>> viable.
>>
>> As far as I can tell, the no_new_privs flag of at task is not related to
>> namespaces. The CGRP_NO_NEW_PRIVS flag is only a cache to quickly access
>> the no_new_privs property of *tasks* in a cgroup. The semantic is unchanged.
>>
>> Using cgroup is optional, any task could use the seccomp-based
>> landlocking instead. However, for those that want/need to manage a
>> security policy in a more dynamic way, using cgroups may make sense.
>>
>> I though cgroup delegation was OK in the v2, isn't it the case? Do you
>> have some links?
>>
>>>
>>> Can we try to make landlock work completely independently of cgroups
>>> so that it doesn't get stuck and so that programs can use it without
>>> worrying about cgroup v1 vs v2, interactions with cgroup managers,
>>> cgroup managers that (supposedly?) will start migrating processes
>>> around piecemeal and almost certainly blowing up landlock in the
>>> process, etc?
>>
>> This RFC handle both cgroup and seccomp approaches in a similar way. I
>> don't see why building on top of cgroup v2 is a problem. Is there
>> security issues with delegation?
>
> What I mean is: cgroup v2 delegation has a functionality problem.
> Tejun says [1]:
>
> We haven't had to face this decision because cgroup has never properly
> supported delegating to applications and the in-use setups where this
> happens are custom configurations where there is no boundary between
> system and applications and adhoc trial-and-error is good enough a way
> to find a working solution. That wiggle room goes away once we
> officially open this up to individual applications.
>
> Unless and until that changes, I think that landlock should stay away
> from cgroups. Others could reasonably disagree with me.
>
> [1] https://lkml.kernel.org/r/20160909225747.GA30105@mtj.duckdns.org
>
I don't get the same echo here:
https://lkml.kernel.org/r/20160826155026.GD16906@mtj.duckdns.org
On 26/08/2016 17:50, Tejun Heo wrote:
> Please refer to "2-5. Delegation" of Documentation/cgroup-v2.txt.
> Delegation on v1 is broken on both core and specific controller
> behaviors and thus discouraged. On v2, delegation should work just
> fine.
Tejun, could you please clarify if there is still a problem with cgroup
v2 delegation?
This patch only implement a cache mechanism with the CGRP_NO_NEW_PRIVS
flag. If cgroups can group processes correctly, I don't see any
(security) issue here. It's the administrator choice to delegate a part
of the cgroup management. It's then the delegatee responsibility to
correctly put processes in cgroups. This is comparable to a process
which is responsible to correctly call seccomp(2).
Mickaël
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