Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 12:22:28 -0500 From: Rob Landley <rob@...dley.net> To: musl@...ts.openwall.com Cc: musl@...ts.openwall.com Subject: Re: GLOB_BRACE On 09/23/2013 10:54:55 AM, Rich Felker wrote: > On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:18:12AM -0500, Rob Landley wrote: > > On 09/23/2013 09:35:25 AM, Luca Barbato wrote: > > >On 23/09/13 16:08, Rob Landley wrote: > > >> systemd is the second coming of devfsd. A lot of us are waiting > > >for it > > >> to blow over. > > > > > >Given the economic and PR support it won't blow over easily if > > >alternatives on par on the PR side won't appear. > > > > Exact same argument applied to Windows. > > And Windows hasn't "blown over". Sure. But it wasn't a reason to stop doing Linux either. > It's become arguably irrelevant > percentage-wise because the scope of the 'market' has vastly grown, > but in terms of absolute numbers it's still there, and it's still > critical to most of the content-production that takes place. > > It's fine if you want to say you don't care about this now-niche > market, but that doesn't solve the problem for people who are still > dependent on it (which is still a fairly large portion of the > computer-using population, even if only a small portion of the number > of computers). Server systems migrated from glibc to musl but with systemd seems like a fairly small niche, but if it interests you... > > >Keep in mind that pigs can fly just nicely if propelled > > >adequately. The > > >landing could be problematic though. > > > > Mainframe -> minicomputer -> microcomputer -> smartphone. Arguing > > about how Red Hat Enterprise does it today is like arguing over how > > the VAX did it circa 1991. > > > > Linux on the desktop didn't happen. Past tense. There are a billion > > android devices in use today. The new iPhone is explicitly a desktop > > replacement with a 64 bit processor, support for bluetooth mice and > > keyboards, and airplay to put the display on any HDTV: > > > > http://www.cringely.com/2013/09/19/the-secret-of-ios-7/ > > The iPhone doesn't even have a model for storing data locally in a way > that's sharable between applications. Yes, we're moving in the > direction you describe, but it's going to (1) take a bit longer, and > (2) be full of really bad solutions from all the major commercial > players. Agreed. Although the number of failed X11 thin clients in the 1990's was kind of hilarious. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_terminal http://news.cnet.com/Ellison-resurrects-network-computer/2100-1001_3-233137.html People have been trying to get rid of local storage and have dumb terminals for something like 30 years. It's been 5 years away all that time. *shrug* I often use my android phone for is as a convenient USB stick via the charger cable. How this is programmed is still up in the air, but the hardware's there. > > Android's not far behind. All we have to do is prevent systemd from > > being adopted by Android and Lennart's Hairball can get kicked up > > into the server space with the previous generation of hardware like > > Cobol before it, where we don't have to care unless we want to be > > our generation's version of punched card job control wranglers for > > the money. > > The problem is that we do care about server space. The naive version > of your analogy with "mainframe -> mini -> ..." breaks down in that > this time, it's not really the old technology and problems being > pushed up to the servespace. Instead, the serverspace is undergoing > its own major change to something new; in buzzword-space, this is > called "the cloud". I thought "the cloud" was the name of the NSA's server? > Even if it's similar hardware to what was in use > on "the desktop" in the past (even this is debatable; the only > similarity is really the ISA, x86, and parts of the associated > peripheral architecture) the deployment model is vastly different. > > Part of this is the pushing of the thin client model on devices, which > probably makes sense, from lots of standpoints: power-consumption, > avoiding malware, protecting data against device loss/theft, etc. But > it also means that development for mobile devices will probably > continue to entail development of corresponding server-side > components. Have they solved spectrum crunch yet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuqmKg6QQTw *shrug* Within IBM, one of the main uses of the original PC was to run a tn3270 client in software. But the PC grew legs, I still expect the phone to do so. Transition's likely to take a while, but expecting conventional linux on the desktop to suddenly matter more? Well, at least we're making a unified effort: https://lwn.net/Articles/564369/ http://venturebeat.com/2013/09/04/mozilla-will-give-you-a-free-firefox-phone-if-you-port-your-app/ http://www.indystar.com/article/20130923/BUSINESS/309230002/Google-banking-new-Chromebook-lineup http://dot.kde.org/2013/09/05/plasma-active-4-ready-when-you-are > Rich Rob
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