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Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 12:22:28 -0500
From: Rob Landley <>
Subject: Re: GLOB_BRACE

On 09/23/2013 10:54:55 AM, Rich Felker wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:18:12AM -0500, Rob Landley wrote:
> > On 09/23/2013 09:35:25 AM, Luca Barbato wrote:
> > >On 23/09/13 16:08, Rob Landley wrote:
> > >> systemd is the second coming of devfsd. A lot of us are waiting
> > >for it
> > >> to blow over.
> > >
> > >Given the economic and PR support it won't blow over easily if
> > >alternatives on par on the PR side won't appear.
> >
> > Exact same argument applied to Windows.
> And Windows hasn't "blown over".

Sure. But it wasn't a reason to stop doing Linux either.

> It's become arguably irrelevant
> percentage-wise because the scope of the 'market' has vastly grown,
> but in terms of absolute numbers it's still there, and it's still
> critical to most of the content-production that takes place.
> It's fine if you want to say you don't care about this now-niche
> market, but that doesn't solve the problem for people who are still
> dependent on it (which is still a fairly large portion of the
> computer-using population, even if only a small portion of the number
> of computers).

Server systems migrated from glibc to musl but with systemd seems like  
a fairly small niche, but if it interests you...

> > >Keep in mind that pigs can fly just nicely if propelled
> > >adequately. The
> > >landing could be problematic though.
> >
> > Mainframe -> minicomputer -> microcomputer -> smartphone. Arguing
> > about how Red Hat Enterprise does it today is like arguing over how
> > the VAX did it circa 1991.
> >
> > Linux on the desktop didn't happen. Past tense. There are a billion
> > android devices in use today. The new iPhone is explicitly a desktop
> > replacement with a 64 bit processor, support for bluetooth mice and
> > keyboards, and airplay to put the display on any HDTV:
> >
> >
> The iPhone doesn't even have a model for storing data locally in a way
> that's sharable between applications. Yes, we're moving in the
> direction you describe, but it's going to (1) take a bit longer, and
> (2) be full of really bad solutions from all the major commercial
> players.

Agreed. Although the number of failed X11 thin clients in the 1990's  
was kind of hilarious.

People have been trying to get rid of local storage and have dumb  
terminals for something like 30 years. It's been 5 years away all that  

*shrug* I often use my android phone for is as a convenient USB stick  
via the charger cable. How this is programmed is still up in the air,  
but the hardware's there.

> > Android's not far behind. All we have to do is prevent systemd from
> > being adopted by Android and Lennart's Hairball can get kicked up
> > into the server space with the previous generation of hardware like
> > Cobol before it, where we don't have to care unless we want to be
> > our generation's version of punched card job control wranglers for
> > the money.
> The problem is that we do care about server space. The naive version
> of your analogy with "mainframe -> mini -> ..." breaks down in that
> this time, it's not really the old technology and problems being
> pushed up to the servespace. Instead, the serverspace is undergoing
> its own major change to something new; in buzzword-space, this is
> called "the cloud".

I thought "the cloud" was the name of the NSA's server?

> Even if it's similar hardware to what was in use
> on "the desktop" in the past (even this is debatable; the only
> similarity is really the ISA, x86, and parts of the associated
> peripheral architecture) the deployment model is vastly different.
> Part of this is the pushing of the thin client model on devices, which
> probably makes sense, from lots of standpoints: power-consumption,
> avoiding malware, protecting data against device loss/theft, etc. But
> it also means that development for mobile devices will probably
> continue to entail development of corresponding server-side
> components.

Have they solved spectrum crunch yet?

*shrug* Within IBM, one of the main uses of the original PC was to run  
a tn3270 client in software. But the PC grew legs, I still expect the  
phone to do so. Transition's likely to take a while, but expecting  
conventional linux on the desktop to suddenly matter more? Well, at  
least we're making a unified effort:

> Rich


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