Openwall GNU/*/Linux - a small security-enhanced Linux distro for servers
[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 11:59:23 +0200
From: Pavel Machek <pavel@....cz>
To: Boris Lukashev <blukashev@...pervictus.com>
Cc: Ingo Molnar <mingo@...nel.org>, Thomas Garnier <thgarnie@...gle.com>,
	Herbert Xu <herbert@...dor.apana.org.au>,
	"David S . Miller" <davem@...emloft.net>,
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...hat.com>, "H . Peter Anvin" <hpa@...or.com>,
	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
	Josh Poimboeuf <jpoimboe@...hat.com>, Arnd Bergmann <arnd@...db.de>,
	Matthias Kaehlcke <mka@...omium.org>,
	Boris Ostrovsky <boris.ostrovsky@...cle.com>,
	Juergen Gross <jgross@...e.com>,
	Paolo Bonzini <pbonzini@...hat.com>,
	Radim Krčmář <rkrcmar@...hat.com>,
	Joerg Roedel <joro@...tes.org>,
	Tom Lendacky <thomas.lendacky@....com>,
	Andy Lutomirski <luto@...nel.org>, Borislav Petkov <bp@...e.de>,
	Brian Gerst <brgerst@...il.com>,
	"Kirill A . Shutemov" <kirill.shutemov@...ux.intel.com>,
	"Rafael J . Wysocki" <rjw@...ysocki.net>,
	Len Brown <len.brown@...el.com>, Tejun Heo <tj@...nel.org>,
	Christoph Lameter <cl@...ux.com>,
	Paul Gortmaker <paul.gortmaker@...driver.com>,
	Chris Metcalf <cmetcalf@...lanox.com>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	"Paul E . McKenney" <paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com>,
	Nicolas Pitre <nicolas.pitre@...aro.org>,
	Christopher Li <sparse@...isli.org>,
	"Rafael J . Wysocki" <rafael.j.wysocki@...el.com>,
	Lukas Wunner <lukas@...ner.de>,
	Mika Westerberg <mika.westerberg@...ux.intel.com>,
	Dou Liyang <douly.fnst@...fujitsu.com>,
	Daniel Borkmann <daniel@...earbox.net>,
	Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...nel.org>,
	Masahiro Yamada <yamada.masahiro@...ionext.com>,
	Markus Trippelsdorf <markus@...ppelsdorf.de>,
	Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>,
	Kees Cook <keescook@...omium.org>, Rik van Riel <riel@...hat.com>,
	David Howells <dhowells@...hat.com>,
	Waiman Long <longman@...hat.com>, Kyle Huey <me@...ehuey.com>,
	Peter Foley <pefoley2@...oley.com>,
	Tim Chen <tim.c.chen@...ux.intel.com>,
	Catalin Marinas <catalin.marinas@....com>,
	Ard Biesheuvel <ard.biesheuvel@...aro.org>,
	Michal Hocko <mhocko@...e.com>,
	Matthew Wilcox <mawilcox@...rosoft.com>,
	"H . J . Lu" <hjl.tools@...il.com>, Paul Bolle <pebolle@...cali.nl>,
	Rob Landley <rob@...dley.net>, Baoquan He <bhe@...hat.com>,
	Daniel Micay <danielmicay@...il.com>,
	the arch/x86 maintainers <x86@...nel.org>,
	Linux Crypto Mailing List <linux-crypto@...r.kernel.org>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>, xen-devel@...ts.xenproject.org,
	kvm list <kvm@...r.kernel.org>,
	Linux PM list <linux-pm@...r.kernel.org>,
	linux-arch <linux-arch@...r.kernel.org>,
	linux-sparse@...r.kernel.org,
	Kernel Hardening <kernel-hardening@...ts.openwall.com>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Peter Zijlstra <a.p.zijlstra@...llo.nl>,
	Borislav Petkov <bp@...en8.de>
Subject: Re: Re: x86: PIE support and option to extend
 KASLR randomization

Hi!

> > +         The kernel and modules will generate slightly more assembly (1 to 2%
> > +         increase on the .text sections). The vmlinux binary will be
> > +         significantly smaller due to less relocations.
> >
> > ... but describing a 1-2% kernel text size increase as "slightly more assembly"
> > shows a gratituous disregard to kernel code generation quality! In reality that's
> > a huge size increase that in most cases will almost directly transfer to a 1-2%
> > slowdown for kernel intense workloads.
> >
> > Where does that size increase come from, if PIE is capable of using relative
> > instructins well? Does it come from the loss of a generic register and the
> > resulting increase in register pressure, stack spills, etc.?
> >
> > So I'm still unhappy about this all, and about the attitude surrounding it.
> 
> Is the expectation then to have security functions also decrease size
> and operational latency? Seems a bit unrealistic if so.
> 1-2% performance hit on systems which have become at least several
> hundred % faster over recent years is not a significant performance
> regression compared to the baseline before.

We are probably willing to trade security for 2% performance impact...
if you can show that same security advantage can't be achieved without
the impact (and it is opt-in and documented and so on).

Kernel is not really a bottleneck for many people. For me, even CPUs
are not bottleneck, disk is.

But what is not okay is "hey, this is security, I can slow things
down. Merge it, because... security!".

Best regards,

									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Download attachment "signature.asc" of type "application/pgp-signature" (182 bytes)

Powered by blists - more mailing lists

Your e-mail address:

Confused about mailing lists and their use? Read about mailing lists on Wikipedia and check out these guidelines on proper formatting of your messages.