Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 03:22:32 +0300 From: croco@...nwall.com To: owl-users@...ts.openwall.com Subject: Re: owl-startup Colleagues, On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 07:39:10AM +0300, (GalaxyMaster) wrote: > Gremlin, All, [...] > On a side note, I would never imagine that I'd raise it here and be a > proponent of it, but here it comes: should we start working toward > integrating systemd into Owl? I strongly believe that there should never ever be even an idea of using this monster. Distros that switched to it are, to my mind, absolutely useless now, at least for me, as I DEFINITELY will refuse to invest my time in learning how to deal with systemd; I tried to run Gentoo on my Raspberry Pi, and I found that I'm no longer able to configure the network (okay, if, with all my experience, I fail to configure the networking properly in a hour, then, the problem is not with me but with the distro), I can't launch nor stop daemons, and I CAN'T VIEW LOGS!!! It was the first time in 20+ years of my personal Unix experience when 'less /var/log/messages' gave me 'No such file or directory'. Hell, I hate Windows, and I feel terribly helpless trying to deal with Windows (when I have to), but dealing with systemd-based distros is even worse. Well, not only I believe systemd shoudn't be used (by anyone, for any purpose), I really believe that the people who wrote it should be at least decapitated. This is just Another Terrible Mistake, we know a lot of them: C99, STL, USB, C++11, ad infinitum. If I hear the word 'terrorism', I recall all these things, they do more harm to mankind than Al Quaeda does. > Over the last 6 months I was kind of "forced" to work extensively with > distros that switched to systemd. To do my job properly I had to learn > the design of that framework and it really looks logical and once you > jump through the hoops of the learning curve you cannot deny that > Poettering and Co did a huge amount of work to standardise the startup & > init process. The documentation is also _very_ good. This is just irrelevant here. Systemd claims to solve problems that actually do NOT exist. Look, in my practice I never face any of these 'problems', so I don't need any solution to them. From the other hand, being forced to use systemd, I'll *HAVE TO* learn it. The docs might me good, or even excellent, but the thing as such is overcomplicated, so it would take really significant amount of my time to get being able to deal with it. WHY the hell should I waste my time? I'm damn old and I clearly see that the rest of my life is insufficient to do all things I want to complete. And if we add up all the time that people around the globe HAVE TO waste learning systemd, we'll see the authors of systemd are kinda serial murderers as this amount of wasted time is equal to smth. like 1000 or even more human lifetimes. BTW, I even hate these people who wrote Grub and I'm glad Openwall continues to use Lilo. Why? There's only two things I really need from a boot manager: I want to be able to replace the kernel and I want to be able to boot with init=/bin/sh in case of troubles. I perfectly know how to do these with Lilo. I never feel good doing exactly the same things with Grub, every time I have to waste time figuring out how to achieve what I need. And THERE'S ABSLOLUTELY NOTHING in reward! I never need anything Grub is able to perform: you see, Grub is there for smth. like 15 years, all these years I use Linux (and nothing else), and I never made any profit of Grub, only losses. But Grub is only a boot manager. Systemd replaces all what I'm used to think of as 'Unix'. Troubles? Obviously. Profit? None at all. > Sooner or later we will face the fact that we should decide whether we > go with the trend or make our own path. However, knowing our limited > resources I doubt that we are going very successful with the latter. See http://debianfork.org/ People are so unhappy with systemd that they are going to fork Debian. I understand them. Perfectly. This 'trend' is a thing to resist up to death. There must be SOMEONE who resists. Openwall GNU/*/Linux is a server distro which nearly by definition has none of these 'problems' that damn systemd tries to address. > Opinions? What opinions? Simply go shut in the head these bastards who invented systemd. And, perhaps, those who force distros to switch to it, as well. Anyway, having a server distro that does NOT require the admin to know how to deal with systemd is good in itself. -- Croco
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