Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 13:08:12 -0400 From: Sasha Levin <sashal@...nel.org> To: oss-security@...ts.openwall.com Subject: Re: linux-distros membership application - Microsoft On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 02:57:43PM +0200, Solar Designer wrote: >On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 01:05:08PM -0400, Sasha Levin wrote: >> email@example.com is not a disclosure list, but >> rather just a way to pull in kernel folks to fix issues. Some (most?) of >> the kernel bugs that get fixed don't go through that list to begin with. > >"Some (most?) of the kernel [security] bugs that get fixed don't go >through" linux-distros as well. True, but we care about more than just the kernel side of things. >> The kernel's documentation with regards to security issues and >> disclosure actually points to linux-distros: >> https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/admin-guide/security-bugs.rst . > >I'm not entirely happy with the wording used there, which currently is: > >--- >Fixes for sensitive bugs, such as those that might lead to privilege >escalations, may need to be coordinated with the private ><linux-distros@...openwall.org> mailing list so that distribution vendors >are well prepared to issue a fixed kernel upon public disclosure of the >upstream fix. Distros will need some time to test the proposed patch and >will generally request at least a few days of embargo, and vendor update >publication prefers to happen Tuesday through Thursday. When appropriate, >the security team can assist with this coordination, or the reporter can >include linux-distros from the start. In this case, remember to prefix >the email Subject line with "[vs]" as described in the linux-distros wiki: ><http://oss-security.openwall.org/wiki/mailing-lists/distros#how-to-use-the-lists> >--- > >This says that "Distros [...] will generally request at least a few days >of embargo", but the actual policy of (linux-)distros is that the >reporter must provide a tentative public disclosure date/time in their >very first message. > >Also, this doesn't say that by disclosing something to (linux-)distros >the reporter accepts the list's policy, and leaves actually reading that >wiki page with the policy optional. > >I don't readily have suggested edits, but we should address these issues >somehow. Please feel free to suggest edits. Can I suggest that we fork the discussion around security-bugs.rst to LKML? I can suggest an initial patch to address your comments here but I think that this is better handled on LKML. >On a related note, this might not be representative, but I ran a Twitter >poll on days of week for vulnerability disclosures: > >https://twitter.com/solardiz/status/923885360001757185 > >Poll: What days of week work best for you for public disclosure by >others of vulnerabilities in software you (or your employer, etc.) use? > >23% No preference or Other >33% Mon >36% Tue, Wed, Thu > 8% Fri, Sat, Sun > >164 votes > >12:13 PM - 27 Oct 2017 > >As you can see, Mon fared really well - almost same as Tue, Wed, Thu >combined, meaning that it might be _the_ preferred day of week for >vulnerability disclosures. So we probably shouldn't exclude Mondays. My concern with Monday is timezones: we should do the math here, but I'd like to avoid spilling over to Sunday (or very early Monday for that matter) for some timezones. >> To complicate your question further: the Linux usage on our cloud has >> surpassed Windows, as a by-product of that MSRC has started receiving >> security reports of issues with Linux code both from users and vendors. >> It's also the case that issues that are common for Windows and Linux >> (like those speculative hardware bugs) are shared with us via MSRC as >> well. >> >> If you think that there's value in connecting between these 3 >> entities, I'd be happy to do so (maybe as part of a new task). > >I'm not sure. The microarchitectural "bugs" would have been >inappropriate to bring to the distros list earlier than in 14 days prior >to their public disclosures, and I don't know if the public disclosure >dates on those were specific enough to achieve that. Maybe you know? As far as I understand specific dates for the microarchitectural bugs were set pretty late in the process. It's not just the microarchitectural bugs I was referring to, we are getting security reports from users about security bugs in various distros and we end up circling back with relevant distros to patch them up. A recent example would be: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1834499 where an internal user has reported a kernel memory leak due to a missing patch in Ubuntu. >> >It'd be helpful if you could directly address this part: "including some >> >that had been handled on (linux-)distros, meaning that membership would >> >have been relevant to you". Without such examples yet, we'd have to be >> >guessing whether the membership would have been relevant to you or not. >> > >> >Right now, the statistics at: >> > >> >https://oss-security.openwall.org/wiki/mailing-lists/distros/stats >> > >> >only go until the end of 2018, so you'd be able to use them for examples >> >dating back to 2018 and earlier. We should ask Gentoo to update these >> >statistics soon, perhaps for period until end of June 2019, which will >> >be possible soon. >> >> Sure! Issues on the stats page that would not have been reported to MSRC >> but are relevant to us would include: >> >> - On the kernel side, issues such as CVE-2017-7533 >> (https://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2017/08/03/2) would be >> relevant for all our offerings. >> >> - Core libraries affect us as well, for example CVE-2017-1000408 >> (https://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2017/12/11/4). This >> would affect our Sphere and SaaS offerings, as well as probably make >> us run through them through test gauntlet for WSLv2. >> >> - Higher level Linux tools, such as the one in CVE-2018-14722 >> (https://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2018/08/14/7) affect >> mostly our IaaS offerings, but I expect that we'd again validate the >> rest of our offerings with the fix. > >Thanks! Ideally, you'd also demonstrate that Microsoft fixed those >issues (where relevant) within days of their public disclosure (so that >some days of advance notice would have made a difference). Can you? > >Or are you merely pointing out the kind of issues that would have been >relevant to you and presumably fixed promptly now, but were not relevant >and thus were not fixed back then? That's less than ideal if so. Microsoft's history with Linux is a rather recent one. I can offer the following examples if you're willing to give us a few months off of the "1 year" requirement: CVE-2018-1002105: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/updates/aks-clusters-patched-for-kubernetes-vulnerability/ CVE-2018-5391, CVE-2018-5390: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/security-bulletin-for-august-2018/ CVE-2019-5736: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/updates/iot-edge-fix-cve-2019-5736/ CVE-2019-11477, CVE-2019-11478, CVE-2019-11479: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/updates/security-advisory-on-linux-kernel-tcp-vulnerabilities-for-hdinsight-clusters/ >> Sure, we'd love to help with the list's pain points. > >Great! > >> >The lack of a volunteer distro for Administrative "4. Evaluate relevance >> >to other parties ..." came up e.g. here: >> > >> >"Linux kernel: Bluetooth: two remote infoleaks (CVE-2019-3459, >> >CVE-2019-3460)" >> >https://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2019/01/11/2 >> >> This could be interesting for us. we already work closely with multiple >> distros as part of our public IaaS offering, as well as my work >> maintaining the stable tree means I interact often with many subsystem >> maintainers. We could leverage that for this task. >> >> I think that this task would also benefit from collaboration with MSRC, >> where for example we could verify whether the Bluetooth issue you brought >> up would affect Windows, and whether issues reported to MSRC also affect >> Linux. > >If Microsoft joins for its Linux offerings (including Linux on top of >Windows), then checking if the Linux issues also affect Windows (itself) >would involve sharing beyond the need-to-know condition of >(linux-)distros list policy, so isn't allowed by default. It could >still be done with explicit approval of the reporter, though, and I >expect most people would give such approval if asked. I'd love to develop a framework that would allow for sharing of reports between linux-distros/security@.../MSRC given the explicit approval of the reporter. I think that the current "silo" model is broken. Microsoft in general, and MSRC in particular have proved during Meltdown/Spectre that they are a trusted entity which can work well with the open source community to advance our common goals. -- Thanks, Sasha
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