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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 15:10:58 +0000
From: "Radzykewycz, T (Radzy)" <>
To: "" <>
Subject: RE: [security-vendor] Re: Fuzzing findings (and
 maybe CVE requests) - Image/GraphicsMagick, elfutils, GIMP, gdk-pixbuf,
 file, ndisasm, less

There's no guarantee about anything being "bug free".  Even certification by NIAP doesn't guarantee that it's bug free.  Nor that it's secure.  But it does make it relatively more likely to have fewer bugs and be more secure.  Same with OSS tool fuzzing and some kind of database indicating the level of fuzzing that has happened on them.

If I were a Linux distro maintainer, looking at packages to include, I would appreciate this information.  (For that matter, I'd appreciate it for my own use, though that's less relevant.)

If there is a distro maintainer on this list, please chime in.

From: ┼╣micier Januszkiewicz []
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:17 AM
Subject: [security-vendor] Re: [oss-security] Fuzzing findings (and maybe CVE requests) - Image/GraphicsMagick, elfutils, GIMP, gdk-pixbuf, file, ndisasm, less

2014-11-18 4:37 GMT+01:00 Robert Watson <>:

> What about using fuzzing to find those tools withOUT vulnerabilities and
> "certifying them" in some way as safe for all inputs?

I think the main issue with this approach would be that one cannot
prove that something DOES NOT exist. One can easily prove that
something DOES exist by producing evidence: you can prove a bug exists
by providing reproduction steps or a proof-of-concept file that
triggers the issue. On the other hand, it would be very problematic to
prove a program is bug-free -- what evidence can you bring to support
that? Since one can theoretically produce an infinite amount of test
cases given e.g. a grammar, how would you test a program against "all
inputs"? If it's via fuzzing, who can "certify" that a fuzzer you used
indeed produced "all inputs"? Would we need fuzzer certifications,

I think every time after a product passes an audit, a certification,
or whatever, another guy comes about and spots a security issue nobody
else has spotted before. Is the product still secure? Does that kind
of certification actually mean anything with respect to "having no
bugs"? I strongly doubt that.


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