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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 12:31:54 -0600
From: Richard Miles <richard.k.miles@...glemail.com>
To: john-users@...ts.openwall.com
Subject: Re: Questions and suggestions to build a home cracking
box. :)
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Solar Designer <solar@...nwall.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, but certain lucky driver versions mostly work fine. e.g. Catalyst
> 13.11beta1 seems mostly fine (although we might not have tested it
> enough), 13.11beta6 is not. For an older GPU (not requiring very recent
> Catalyst versions), 13.4 should be mostly fine.
>
>
Looks like a good reason to avoid the new GPUs.
> > c) What is JtR actual support for Radeon cards? At the moment and further
> > efforts are better Radeon or Nvidia?
>
> You just choose the GPU that is faster for your hash types. At mscash2
> that you mentioned, AMD GPUs are a lot faster than NVIDIA.
>
>
Yeah, but I expect to be able to use for fast hashes soon with great speed,
so I want to buy a card that will be useful on the future for this task.
Today, most of the times. You know, most of my customers are Windows based
and I have to crack very often NTLM (local and network), MSSQL (local and
network), MySQL (local and network) and sometimes even Oracle hashes.
Before you ask, I have customers with different database versions and
consequently different password formats.
> > d) The infamous Radeon 6990 is not produced anymore and the used ones are
> > more expensive in comparison with 7970. LOL! There are newer models that
> > was unavailable at that time. What do you guys suggest? Should I buy 2
> > better GPUs? Or 3 GPUs that are average? Or one single super GPU?
>
> I recommend 7970. New reference 7970 GE can still be bought, despite
> what magnum said. ;-) They're also inexpensive now. You might buy two
> for the price of one R9 290X.
>
>
I guess that GE means "Gigahertz Edition". I was thinking the difference of
power is so small that no difference at all should exist. I guess I'm
wrong, in special because I was influenced that the ones with 952 GHz are
cheaper. :)
I was looking around and the the manufacturer appears to be very, very
important.
Example of a 7970 that should be horrible, a guys computing hashes
commented about it there:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131468
This one is not GE, but very recommended based on comments:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161412
Should it be a good option?
And this is the GE edition for the infamous Sapphire:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102961
But I got a bit disappointed by comments. They say it's very loud (which is
not nice) and get hot very fast, at least two reviews like that.
Do you have any brand to suggest? :)
> R9 290X is faster than one 7970, but is more of an experimental option
> now (fewer suitable Catalyst versions, etc.) You may try it, though.
> We will.
>
Cool. So I guess it's a matter of a few weeks to get a decent driver fixed
and all will be good, right?
>
> 7990 has cooling problems itself (have to underclock its GPU0, except in
> server chassis with fans forced to "Full"), and will additionally heat
> up the rest of your components (again, unless in suitable server
> chassis). Water-cooling solves this, but costs a lot (could buy more
> GPUs instead) and is risky. 7990 requires at least Catalyst 13.6beta
> (won't run with 13.4).
>
I will avoid it. As I will be doing cracking with all my power 24X7 I want
to avoid the heat as most as possible.
>
> 6990 is outdated. Not much faster than 7970 (if at all; depends on hash
> type), but costs more, produces more heat, and has little overclocking
> potential (7970 has a lot).
>
Cool. What 7970 brand do you have?
>
> > e) Is is possible to do overclock on processors and GPU cards under
> Linux?
>
> Yes.
>
> > Is it recommended?
>
> Not really. There's usually more to be achieved by focusing your
> attacks than by increasing the speed of your machine, not to mention the
> risks, extra heat, and extra noise. There are some rare exceptions to
> this - e.g., if you were to crack bcrypt hashes on 7970s for some reason
> (just don't have a lot of CPUs and happen to have these GPUs
> idling), overclocking them is OK (and for this hash type does not result
> in any heat and noise - the GPU stays cool and silent, since only 1/4th
> of it can be used for bcrypt cracking anyway).
>
Got it, I guess that I will work without overclock, I want to play safe and
keep running stable for a long time.
>
> > What tools are available?
>
> For CPU, you control the overclocking (mostly) via BIOS setup settings
> (so not in Linux, but they remain in effect for Linux). Some
> motherboards also let you overclock on the fly with buttons on the
> motherboard itself. For AMD GPUs, you overclock (or underclock if
> necessary!) with amdconfig (command-line tool included in the Catalyst
> driver package).
>
It's very helpful, I took a look around and learn a good amount of things
about it. Thanks.
> > 6) Suppose that I have a wordlist of almost 70GB. In this case the memory
> > of motherboard and memory of graphical card will influence a lot or not?
>
> No, unless you install more than 70 GB RAM, although when cracking fast
> hashes it makes sense to keep that wordlist on SSD (if you have one).
>
>
WOW! So 32GB of RAM will have almost the same effect in comparison with
16GB in this case?
The RAM available at GPU makes any difference for password cracking?
I noted about SSD, looks valid idea. :)
> > 7) Does it worth to use two GPU cards together?
>
> You may, e.g. to run two attacks at once efficiently. You tell one
> instance of JtR to use --device=0 and the other --device=1. In
> bleeding-jumbo, you may also have one attack use both GPUs with
> "--fork=2 --device=0,1" (requires recent Catalyst).
>
>
Interesting, thanks.
> > Is there any specific advantage for password cracking with jTr?
>
> Of multiple GPUs? No. One faster GPU is better than two slower ones,
> but if you want total performance better than that of one fastest GPU,
> you have to use two or more.
>
> However, 2x7970 is better than one 7990 in terms of cooling. 7970's
> blow hot air to outside of the case, 7990 inside. Dual-GPU cards like
> 6990 and 7990 look to software as two GPUs anyway, though (so you have
> to use the --device option as if you had two cards).
>
>
Great point, noted again. :)
> > 8) Finally, I'm very concerned about power supply and cooler. What do you
> > guys recommend for a safe setup to keep this box running for week without
> > temperature issues? :)
>
> GPU cards that blow hot air to outside of the case (7970 is great).
> CPU with sane TDP (perhaps up to 95W). Decent air cooling.
>
Decent air cooling for chassis or processor?
I was thinking of the following air cooler for processor:
Zalman CNPS12X Noctua NH-D14
I found great review for both.
For chassis coller I heard that the following are good:
Viper, Xtraflo ou Excalibur
Do you have any difference suggestion?
Should I use a special cooler for 7970? Or just the built-in?
>
> > a) Should I consider a watercooler for my processor?
>
> I would not, unless you choose a CPU with excessive TDP or/and overclock
> it a lot. The only reason to water-cool a normal CPU would be to reduce
> the noise, but would you also install a water block on your GPU? If
> not, your system would not be silent anyway (not when GPU is in use at
> least). And if you do, it'd cost and increase the risks.
>
I loved the ideas of water-cooling, most people say it's incredible, very
quite and incredible performance. But I'm worried about leaks. I saw
several people saying they are very secure and all that you need is test it
before for 12 hours to make sure that nothing is leak and if all is fine
you are really secured, but I'm still unsure.
> > I was thinking about the following potential configurations:
>
Cool, we are talking about hardware for cracking, awesome, I was missing
it. :)
> >
> > Processor: Core i7 (4770) - 3.40GHz Quad Box (intel)
>
> That's good, but if you consider overclocking at all then go for 4770K
> instead. 4770K is 100 MHz faster (and so is 4771) and has unlocked
> multiplier (can easily be overclocked to 4+ GHz on air). These are
> 84W TDP. Another option that I guess you could afford is 4930K (on a
> suitable motherboard), which is 6-core (12 logical), but it's 130W TDP
> and only 66.8C max temperature, so may be a pain to cool.
>
I got very interested by this i7-4930K, but I'm unsure, in special because
of the max temperature and you told it's hard to keep cool. Advise of
experienced people is very welcome. :)
If I'm going to have issues with heat, why not come back to my original
suggestion of AMD FX? At least it appears to be on the same speed and
cheaper :)
>
> > Motherboard: GA-H81M-S2PV (Gigabyte)
>
> This only works for a single GPU. I suggest that you pick a motherboard
> that will let you upgrade to multiple GPUs (perhaps to 4), so you need
> multiple spaced out PCIe x16 slots. You may also need a big tower case,
> so that the bottom slot is not too close to the bottom of the case
> (otherwise a dual-slot card won't fit in this slot and you'd waste it).
>
>
Great advises. I did my home work and I have some ideas, can you please
take a look with all your experience and advise?
Motherboards:
RAMPAGE IV FORMULA
sabertooth x79
P9X79-E WS
MSI X79A GD45 Plus
GA-X79-UD3
GA-X79-UD5
GA-X79-UP4
I guess the first fours are the best and price is a bit higher, but I may
afford if it will really make the difference. In special most of them
appear to support 4 GPU slots. I would give preference to the one that is
better for cooling and GPU cards well separated and well located.
Advises?
For tower / chassis I found the following that looks good:
Cooler Master Sgc-5000-kwn1 Cm Storm Troo
Thermaltake Chaser Mk-i Black Vn300m1w2n - Full Tower
Gamer Aerocool Xpredator White - Full Tower
Agusta 605wbt black and white
Gamer Vampire 001wbti A35 Black Raidmax
Gamer Raptor Raidmax 823br Usb 3.0
Gamer Aerocool Strike-x Advance Black
Price are very different as well (such as the motherboard), one that called
my attention is Agusta 605wbt black and white because is has 7 fans
built-in and several small details. Looks like they were thinking about
cooling when designed and the price is average.
http://raidmax.com/chassis/agusta.html
Any advises?
> > Power Supply: 800W | GS800 V2 (Corsair)
>
> 800W PSU is OK for that system with two GPUs (650W is minimum for it),
> but for upgrading to 3 or more you need more power.
>
>
Humm. do you recommend any specific?
I found these two and some reviews say they are good:
SeaSonic X-SERIES X-1050 1050W (
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151110&clickid=TY6VuJ03MW1kRSwTchxGuw-UUkTxnPye9z6EWo0&iradid=97618&ircid=2106&irpid=27795&nm_mc=AFC-IR&cm_mmc=AFC-IR-_-na-_-na-_-na
)
CORSAIR HX Series HX1050 1050W ATX12V (
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139034&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-na-_-na-_-na&cm_sp=&AID=10446076&PID=6146836&SID=1s8w7axomfaop
)
Are they good to play with 3 or 4 cards on the future? :)
> > Processor: AM3+ TDP 125W - Piledriver FX8350 4.0GHz Octa-Core
> (AMD)
>
> AMD FX CPUs' computing power is not worth the 125W (Intel's do more per
> Watt), and it can be a pain to cool. I gave up long ago on trying to
> keep FX-8120 under its stated 61C maximum, going for ~70C instead (works
> fine, though). You could with water-cooling, but that has its own
> drawbacks.
>
Drawback is leaks of water-cooling, right?
>
> If you were to purchase one of these anyway, a curious/crazy option
> could be to get FX-9590, but underclock it to FX-8350 clocks (to stay in
> under 125W TDP). The rationale is that FX-9590 are the better bins, so
> they _might_ actually run cooler (yet accept higher temperatures without
> damage to them) at 8350's clocks than actual 8350's do. From a costs
> point of view, this makes sense since 9590's are currently available for
> only a little more than 8350. No, I am not seriously suggesting this to
> you - more like to someone else who would like to experiment and post or
> blog about the results for everyone's amusement. ;-)
>
>
LOL!
> Overall, 4770K will deliver same or better speeds (most of the time) at
> much lower TDP, and 4930K will be much faster at similar TDP (but it
> costs more).
>
Hard decision, if I could find a safe and true way to keep it always cool
(below 55C).
> If you want to save by purchasing GPUs smaller than 7970 (and don't mind
> using up some motherboard slots that way), consider 7950 (compare prices).
> 7870 GE is too small. (7870 XT + overclocking could be OK, but you're
> unlikely to buy it and overclocking is not nice.)
>
>
Thanks for idea, but I discarded this option. I'm between 1 Radeon R9 290X
or 2x Radeon 7970. I'm really concerned about the cooling / hot temperature.
Thanks a lot for all the advises and explanation, helped a lot!
> Alexander
>
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